Lithium batteries, realistic or future?

[98Roamer]

http://www.technomadia.com/2011/10/lithium-update-lead-acid-downsides/

Interesting 3 part article about the advantages of Lithium over traditional batteries.  They're realistic about the technology but their battery bank out priced my entire setup. I'm hoping for smaller packages once this technology is more main stream. 


What have others found or think about Lithium batteries?

I've been researching the 6volt world and right now a pair of US Batteries 6volt are in the cart.  Just looking for a battery box to fit them in. 

[Oz and Us]

What have others found or think about Lithium batteries?

Unless something even better comes along lithium battery technology is probably going to be our future ... however, as far as most RV owners are concerned that "future" is still a l-o-n-g way away based on costs alone, just as are fuel cell solutions.  Certainly those who full time and do a lot of it without shore power being available would be interested but for the average RV owner who camps a few times a year the costs are just WAY too high to justify and won't be a viable option for most until the price is much closer to that of a common lead acid or even AGM battery of similar capacity.

[techntrek]

Interesting blog.  I like their conversion antique camper bus.  Pricey battery pack though.

[DarthMuffin]

While the lithium is nice if you have an unlimited budget, this did get me to thinking about alternatives.  I only have LED lights and the water pump, so a small solar setup gets me topped back up every day.

I could do NiMh batteries instead.  There are 10Ah 1.2V "D" cells out there for about $7 each.  Ten of those and I have a 10Ah 12V battery for $70 that's small (with variable form factor), light, doesn't leak, safe to put inside the camper, and can be recharged 500 times and still be at 90% capacity.  If you assume a G24 battery can only be discharged 50% safely, then that's 40Ah usable which is easily matchable by the NiMh setup (although for $280...).

I wonder how NiMh batteries would work with my solar charger, or being charged from the TV while in motion...

[parrothead]

A small, rechargeable battery pack could work while camping but, if you have trailer brakes and a breakaway switch, you'll need adequate power to lock down the brakes in the event of an emergency.  Not sure if a small NiMH pack would be capable for that.

[wavery]

While the lithium is nice if you have an unlimited budget, this did get me to thinking about alternatives.  I only have LED lights and the water pump, so a small solar setup gets me topped back up every day.

I could do NiMh batteries instead.  There are 10Ah 1.2V "D" cells out there for about $7 each.  Ten of those and I have a 10Ah 12V battery for $70 that's small (with variable form factor), light, doesn't leak, safe to put inside the camper, and can be recharged 500 times and still be at 90% capacity.  If you assume a G24 battery can only be discharged 50% safely, then that's 40Ah usable which is easily matchable by the NiMh setup (although for $280...).

I wonder how NiMh batteries would work with my solar charger, or being charged from the TV while in motion...

NiMh batteries would work with your solar charger just fine if you had enough of them. They don't care where the voltage comes from as long as it is enough to force the amps into that small package. 10ah isn't very realistic IMO for any kind of storage that you hope to replenish with something as unreliable as the Sun (as odd as that may sound).

It would only be reasonable to have a minimum of 10x that much storage capacity (at 10x the cost, I might add) in order to have even a small solar set-up that would be viable for any kind of extended dry-camping (with a camper) unless one is quite the minimalist and/or a tent camper with a latern.

[techntrek]

NiMH will need a different charging algorithm than lead-acid, make sure you find the correct charger.  A lead-acid charger may damage the battery.  You also need to be careful of cell reversal with multiple cells connected together - a reversed cell with NiMH will kill that cell.  One way around that is to set a cut-off voltage at about 1.1-1.15 volts.  Also put the pack where it will stay warm in the fall.

[01YZF6]

 I know it is not directly related, but i use a Shorai Lithium battery in my Motorcycle, and have never been happier.  it cost 25 more than the OEM one, produces better 12v charging results, and is easily HALF the weight too.

if they can come up with an AFFORDABLE system for a heavy duty vehicle ( truck or SUV) then there will easily be an affordable option for the trailers too.

[DarthMuffin]

Thanks for the charging info techntrek, that's pretty much what I thought.  I know that NiMH batteries are pretty easy to overcharge and you either need to have a charger that watches voltage closely and shuts off or monitors temperature.  With a bunch of batteries in series it would probably have to be governed by temperature, as one flakey cell could throw off the voltage readings and you'd overcharge and toast the whole pack.

To address some other people's concerns:

It would run the trailer brakes just fine.  They sell trailer brake batteries that are just a small motorcycle battery, and those work fine.  Also, I don't believe that trailer breakaway switches are even required in most states for trailers under a certain weight (and popups qualify, at least in WA).  It's just a good idea.

I also don't think I would need 10x that much storage capacity.  4 banks of 10 NiMH D-cells would be 40Ah.  A group 24 battery is 84Ah I think, and you're only supposed to discharge that 50% so 42Ah usable.  I don't have a lot of draw and haven't come close to taxing my G24 battery, I'd bet 20Ah would get me by.

But, the charging issue kind of kills the project.  Bummer.  I'd also need a way to monitor the charge as NiMH batts cruise along at almost full voltage until they give out suddenly.  Don't need that surprise.

Looking forward to someone making a drop-in battery replacement for a reasonable cost.  Should be possible to take the lithium battery and box it up with the electronics required to let it accept a charge as if it were lead-acid.  Make the box the size of a G24 or G27 battery but 1/2 the weight and twice the charge...  I'd buy one at 5x the price.

[Tenttrailer]

The battery technogoly is moving so fast.  The price is droping so fast with lithium acid gell and mat technology that I would expect in the next 10-15 years the price point will be 20 to 30% highter than for lead acid batteries for auto size batteries. Lithium might be the future, unless there is a new and better technogoly that is found. 

The price of gas is driving large R&D in the auto industry to fing the next auto battery technogoly with huge capacity.  I don't think the acid mat or gel technology is going to be the solution, lithium migh be the future but right now I think Lithium has problems in the large temp range need for the auto industry -60 to + 150 degrees F.  So who knows what it will be.  But one thing you can count on is the auto type batteries 10 to 15 years from now will not be the standard lead acid. 

When the first hybrid cars came out, I look at one.  I went to the parts department and asked the cost to replace all the batteries.  It was over $10,000.   Now to replace the battries its a fraction of the cost compared to when the tehnology first came out.